I read the comments on Amy’s post that I referenced below, and Tim (Highboy on Radar’s blog) said this:
Torture for information is never wrong, especially when that information saves life.
So, aside from torturing people for the sheer sadistic elation you feel as you strap electrodes to their testicles, it’s perfectly fine for the US government to torture people as long as they do it to obtain information. What I think Tim is forgetting in this equation is a little document written around 230 years ago, that has this little tidbit:
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
So, torturing people for information isn’t just illegal, it’s in direct conflict with American values.
Tim likes to chide me for being a liberal, but I have to say that I haven’t compromised my values in the face of 9/11. You see, Tim, the terrorists main weapon is terror. They want you to be afraid, and in his case, they’ve succeeded. He is so scared that he’ll compromise his core American values in order to feel more secure. Tim might call himself a conservative, but what is displayed here is not conservation –it’s weakness.
In America, torture is always wrong, and our founding fathers went through great lengths to make that explicitly clear to us. If you disagree, let’s have that debate –I’d love to have the chance to be against torture while Tim –a self described Christian– will be making the case that tearing out someone’s fingernails is never wrong as long as you merely want information.
It’s a shame we’re not both running for office.
September 22nd, 2006 at 5:23 am
Nicely put.
September 29th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
[...] Latest spew from scohen: So, aside from torturing people for the sheer sadistic elation you feel as you strap electrodes to their testicles, it’s perfectly fine for the US government to torture people as long as they do it to obtain information. What I think Tim is forgetting in this equation is a little document written around 230 years ago, that has this little tidbit: [...]
September 30th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Nice post timmy, I especially like how you didn’t use the quote I used when I wrote this entry.
You said,
“Torture for information is never wrong”
Which means
And you go on and say that our specific techniques aren’t torture. Notice how I didn’t say anything about them in this post, and how I was attacking your blanket assertion that torture for information is NEVER WRONG.
October 2nd, 2006 at 8:42 pm
You grossly misunderstand constitutional law…
October 4th, 2006 at 10:20 am
Then educate me, don’t just make a claim with no evidence.
November 1st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
While it is the case that the US Constitution only applies specifically to US citizens or those residing therein, nonetheless it codifies a set of principles that we believe are -right-… that’s why they’re there. If they are morally right for us, then they’re morally right for others; others simply don’t live in this country. Nonetheless, as is implied ultimately by scohen’s comments, it is -right- thus to apply Constitutional principles to those who are not necessarily of our country or in our country, but come to be under our control/jurisdiction, if you will. A Christian perspective would be to consider that Israel was to have one law for the both the native and the foreigner… justice is no respecter of persons.
(Admittedly, I fear that a fellow Christian, probably of the Dispensational sort, will now point out that Israel executed divinely appointed warfare against quite a few foreigners. The correlation, however, requires a bit more discussion, with Israel/the Promised Land now rightly understood to refer to the Church.)
Unlikely that I agree with scohen on everything… just hoping to help people realize that, while Christianity will always be foolishness to those who don’t believe (as Paul says), there are some things that are foolishness to -everyone-, and it’s unsatisfactory for Christians to support such. (Ech, that was poorly worded.)
November 2nd, 2006 at 1:53 pm
Scrape,
Thank you for understanding my point. I’m a big fan of the Constitution, and believe those are the values that we should apply to everyone, but it’s clear that you get that. My beef isn’t with Christians per se, but those Christians who basically reject Jesus’s teachings about love, caring and humility. Some might even say those Christians are missing the point.
I know I would.
November 3rd, 2006 at 2:25 pm
Incidentally, I think I called you “Scott” on another post. Got it in my nugget somehow that was your name. Oops. Sorry.
Which reminds me… so… can I rotate images in the current jUploadr? Hehe. My ulterior motive.
And of course, morality and justice should be applied evenly. This is not to say I don’t believe that some forms of discrimination are viable (eg a Christian bookstore owner should be able to bar hiring of an atheist, for example), but rather that all men are created in the image of God, whether they perceive that image on themselves or not, and thus are entitled to various aspects of protection of that image. So, you don’t kick a Palestinian family out of their house just because it’s in Israel (ditto an Israeli family… so it’s just all messed up over there for the long run), and if you believe it’s right not to search/seize an American citizen without warrant, then that right applies across the board. The only difference is, we obviously can enforce such conduct when it’s some other nation doing the searching/seizing on a non-US citizen.
Anyhow. I digress. Image rotation in jUploadr?
November 6th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Select Image/Images by clicking on them. Right click. Select ‘Edit Properties’. Click on rotate buttons till the image looks correct.
March 3rd, 2007 at 4:25 pm
I know I would enjoy the “sheer sadistic elation you feel as you strap electrodes to their testicles”
I think a lot of guys would enjoy that!